Lets talk about WATER BOTTOMS in La.

[noze]

::Why does the state not want to claim them. Every law in the books says that the state owns them but, the state will not claim them. I am not a land man but I do know a lot of them, and the word is that if the state claim these water bottoms we would be so rich that the mind could not understand it. You got it, the OIL Royolties. (The culprit, LAND CLAIMERS), the one to blame (DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES). Now surly we will have those who will say we have been owning these lands for decades upon decades but the truth is, it is not theirs. With all of the Great leaders that cannot rerun another term lets try to get someone who will pass some LAWS to fix the State Lands Office and get these dead heads out of the way of the real LA. and get our Water Bottoms back in the states ownership. Remember we are the STATE. This is our future being given away. Our Leaders do not care about us. Lets make some changes. Get rid of these greedy crooks and their family ties and make somthing good for La. May GOD bless America. Merry Christmas to all.

[zoe10850]

The same principal drifts from landowner to state to feds. If you own land (like Plaquemines, St Bernard, Terrebonne,Iberia, Cameron) and land is immersed by Gulf of Mexico, land supposedly reverts to state. After 3 mile limit, reverts to Federal govt. As our coast has eroded, the 3 mile limit moves "in", and the state loses money to Federal govt. Many landowners no longer have land above water, and have lost rights unless that land would be recovered from Gulf. I think Nick is correct, the determining factor is navigible waterways. I do not know which land in St Martin is being referred to by Noze, but if it is in Basin area, I do know why. I seem to remember a similar issue in Jefferson Parish several years ago where the parish dug canals on peoples land. I agree w/Nick; to take that is a socialistic move or land grab by government.

[noze]

If what you say is true, why do all the washed out coast line, which is water now, still being claimed by the people who onced owned the land. Do not ask me how I know this just invite yourself to the assesers office and you will see who is claiming what. The water bottoms are in every other state belong to the state. There is somthing very wrong with La. We are the riches state in the nation in oil and gas and natural resources. Yet we are the 50th poorest state for helping with schools, health care, and roads. We have the riches politicians in the country but we are last in everything. We have federal laws that clearly say that when the coast washes away the state becomes the owner of that water bottom, with the minerals. As for the basin if the leadership of the oil companies would have controled spoil banks through the swamp La. would have it's coast line. It is not lost, it is behind all these spoil banks. They are trying to fill the swamps with spoil so the land claiments can claim it. Follow the river stages at Simsport it shows what is going on. Open wide wash in the sand close it tight so sand can fall. These are the people who need to be in jail. They have ruined the swamps over greed. Our great leaders are the ones to blaime. They all prosper when we (the public) lose. Now who owns the water bottoms in La.

[noze]

I was at the court hearing for the Rycade Lake decision and the judge made her ruling upon rulings from the 1600s. That made it state owned water bottoms. This lake has been claimed for years but now it is ours.(The Puplic). So when the state became La. in the union it's water bottoms were hers, not the land claimentor.

[zoe10850]

I am not that well versed to carry on a very intelligent discussion on this matter, but I do know that in Plaquemines Parish for example, when land sinks into the Gulf, the land assessment is removed from the tax roll. If there is no existing lease on property for mineral rights, then I believe the parish or state would be in a position to sell those rights.

I am not an attorney, but I cannot believe a judge would base a decision on case law from the 1600's. Louisiana was not even a territory in the USA at that time. That does not make much sense. No one owns Lake Ponchatrain, Borgne, or Maurepas. State gets those royalties. No one owns Lake Calcasieu. State owns those drilling rights. Which waterways are you talking about ?

[noze]

Like I stated in my last comments, come to St. Martin Parish and see who is claiming what water and what land. You stated that land owner claimed the water bottom, it was not his or hers to claim. The water bottoms belong to the state. We always want to coppy what other states do, check amd see who owns their water bottoms. Oh yea, they all have a high water mark in each state. Only La. does not require this. I am not a judge or lawyer and do not think of myself to be the smartest man out here so get in touch with this judge and she can explain to you a little better what water bottoms are. If you go to state lands office you can get a map which shows exactly who claims what. A lot of these areas are water and are still claimed by land owners. This map shows that what I claim is true. Sorry I am not as smart as most people. Don't blaime me it is our great school system. Merry Christmas.

[TBEAR]

This is a very interesting topic, learning something new all the time and from what I'm understanding I would agree that if the state didnt take it when it was submerged years ago, too bad they cant take it now, but one question is that if after three miles does the federal law take it from you automatically even though the state missed their opporuntity to take it while it was within the three miles after becoming submerged. (i think I asked that right?)

thanks for the link Nick and good letter in the paper

[noze]

Since the hurricane has washed away a little piece land on the coast has the state come in to claim it's water bottoms. If one was to check the coast line to see who owns what we would clearly see that land owners are claiming water as theirs. Go ride and see how many posted signs there are on the water. But watch out you do not get arrested. On an other note, once upon a time you could see from the levee miles of water, now it is land. Now it is claimed by land claimers. Who's land should this be for, it was clearly a lake owned by the state, as of much of the swamp.

[noze]

Went for a ride in the basin yesterday and saw oil wells in the middle of Bayou Postillion, and guest who name is not on the well head. Thats right, The State of Louisiana. It is Forest Oil who is claiming this bayou. Where are the People who represent DNR, and why is Forest Oil getting rich over this piece of water bottom. The State owns all bayous in La. No one can sell the water bottoms or the bayous. How many cases like this do we have? Bet you do not see this outside of the Basin. It is like the spoil banks, you only see them in the Basin not in the cane fields or the crawfish ponds.

[MaryAnn]

Wouldn't that information be available in the Tax Assessor or Clerk of Court records. If this is bottomland, and the state owns property, wouldn't the state have to sign a lease to permit drilling ?

[noze]

It is available, the State just does not care to claim it. They just let these Land Claiments have what ever they want. They are allowing billons to be stolen from the Public. They need to be held accountable. This is State Water Bottoms.

[noze]

To all who are defending the big landowners in the atchafalaya basin the oil is coming out by the millions of dollars a day and the state is losing. These people who run state lands office should all be put in prison for corruption. This is State Water Bottoms not private land, WATER BOTTOMS. This state will never change. There is so much money out there that these people buy who ever they want or need to. Remember it is not their money so cost is nothing to keep it coming. So when it hits you why theres no more money to run the state, think landclaiment, state lands office, and corrupted leaders. They all pass laws but use only the one that keep them in power and out of trouble. Lets see what Bobby has to say about this one. He will back Mike's rule, leave it alone.

[fubar]

There has been quite a bit of incorrect information and some baseless claims on this topic. I thought I might clear up some:

1. When Louisiana entered the Union, the United States transferred to Louisiana the ownership of all the beds of navigable water bottoms, including navigable rivers, lakes and Arms of the sea. The rest of the land was retained by the US Government, except for that previously transferred by France, Spain of the Indian tribes (title to which was respected in the Louisiana Purchase agreement)

2. When a navigable river changes course or adds to its bank (accretion) or recedes (dereliction) the actual land ownership changes. The landowner, on whose property the navigable river adds soil, increases his ownership. The owner who loses land to the river, loses ownership. The result is that the ownership of the bounding land and the navigable stream are always concurrent. This rule came from France and Spain and was meant to assure that the landowner - almost always a farmer - would be able to get his product to market through the direct connection of his land to the navigable stream without intervening owners.

3. On the other hand, when a navigable lake recedes or dries up, that rules does not apply and the land under the bed of the old, dried up lake is still owned by the state. The location of these navigable lakes depended on their identity by the official US Government surveyors who, originally, surveyed the public lands in order to establish the location of the Range and Township lines and then the actual sections. Once surveyed, the property was subject to entry and sale, by “patent” divesting the US government of title to a private landowner. The instructions to the government surveyors were to “meander” the location of all navigable lakes o r streams. The rest of the land was identified as that being subject to entry, including those areas set out as “swamp or overflow lands” These Swamp Lands were, later, transferred to the states from the Federal government under the Swamp Land Grants act passed right before the Civil War. The State then either sold the land to private owners or transferred the land to some of the Levee Districts who, then, sold to private landowners. This is probably the land about which Mr. Noze is complaining. This is not navigable water, although, at times, usually high water or flood stage, the land might, temporarily, be covered by water. Despite such , the area is still “land” and was sold, either by the Federal or State governments, to private landowners who have owned it, possessed it and enjoyed the benefit since then. After such a sale to private owners, there is this thing called the US Constitution preventing their taking by the government and the trespass laws protecting this land.

4. The state, through the State Mineral Board will lease any land for mineral development even if it smells like it holds water. The highest bidding oil company will win the lease and then can drill on the land or water, paying the state (us taxpayers) a bonus for the lease and royalties if there is production. The State Land Office does an excellent job protecting our public lands. If the property is also claimed by a private landowner the courts can determine the ownership.

6. A swamp is not navigable water. Henderson might look like a lake but it is there only with the act of man. It is a dammed up flooded swamp with the water level being artificially controlled by the state. Most of the Atchafalaya Basin is the same. Almost all of it has been changed by the act of man, which does not count in changing the land from land to the bed of a navigable stream. Just because the government dams up the water (by the levee system) allowing for high water at times, that does not take away a person's property. If you go on the land, by boat, to crawfish, you are just as much trespassing as I would if I went into your back yard to swim in your swimming pool. I have seen aerial photos of the basin starting in the 1930's to today and it is a total mess. What was once lakes, swamps and overflow lands is now dry land, totally. The effect of the channeling of the Mississippi River water into the Red River through the Atchafalaya might keep New Orleans high and dry (in a Mississippi River flood) but it creates a mess in the Basin. Instead of the high water / low water that nature provides for it is now dry land in part and artificially retained water in others. People bought land from the State (Swamp Land Grant Act) and Federal governments in the Basin, have owned it for years and should not suffer trespass because someone thinks it is their right to go fish or crawfish. As I said let me get into your back yard to shoot the doves your wife feeds - no difference. No laws are being broken, no dereliction of duty of the State of Parish governments. If you, honestly, believe in the private ownership of land (your back yard) why do you insist on claiming someone else’s land. They or their ancestors paid for it, it is theirs. Get over it.

[noze]

You say that the state does an excellent job in protecting our public lands, just look at the new state lands map that was just prepared and see how much state land that the STATE LANDS OFFICE has giving away. The big land owners got to tell the State who owns what land not the state telling them what they own. So if these people own these so called water bottoms why are they not putting people in jail for stealing their fish and crawfish and their deer. If it is their land they are doing a bad job of taking care of their natural resources. Or maybe all they want is their (our oil and gas) minerals. Yea, lots of land was sold, and very much illegally, and you do know that if that was tried now that the state will still sell it illegally, so do not tell me that the state is taking care of our lands. These people are puppets to the big landowners. I have heard all these stories, you just do not hear the whole story when it is told. Remember the Longs sold lots of our water bottoms long time ago and it still goes on now. Henderson is run by the Corps not the state, it also was sold illegally, why do you suppose St. Martin Land Co. is selling all of the land that they claim in the swamps. I can go on also but, I know just a little more than you think. No hard feelings.

[SeleR]

I have to agree with Fubar. I think making a bunch of allegations (Big Land Owners), state not managing property (giving away land) without a little more specificity serves no purpose. What exactly are you complaining about, and why, who is involved ? Can't be all greedy no good St Martin politicians. We even have a few of those in Lafayette.

I thought most of Atch Basin was owned by Louisiana Land Co or some other such timber interest. There was a time when you could not give that land away. Name some specifics or let it go !

[noze]

Just go to the assessers office and see who claims what. Millions of dollars every day out of the swamps in minerals. The only people who want to let it go is the ones who have speacial interist in the money. Williams, St. Martin Land, Troubridge, Foster, the list goes on and on.

[fubar]

If Noze will be a little more specific I might be able to further answer. I still think he has fallen for the tree hugger version. If it has water on it at any time it is State land. Well it is not, never was, never will be. The status of the land in 1812 when Louisiana entered the Union (the first time if you study the War of Northern Aggression) or when the land was Patented is the important date. Whatever the status was at that time, as reflected by the official US Government Township survey, or as proven in court is the status.
Now, I did not say that the early version of the Longs and Edwards did not do a lot of hanky panky in getting the land. The state got a royal screw job but only in retrospect. All of the land in the Basin was just sitting there, not earing property taxes and the thought was to sell it cheap so people could clear it and farm it. Bad idea but that was the thinking. Just follow the Wisner & Dresser decisions - those two guys had a sweetheart deal from the Atchafalaya Basin Levee District (and a few others) so that, if they identified unpatented land defined as Swamp and Over Flow lands they would get the levee district to have the State of Louisiana "select" that land (usually in quarter quarter or quarter sections 40 or 80 acres or even larger), the Federals would transfer the land to the State by the selection list and the state would then transfer the land to the Levee District. They, for $1 per acre, would then sell it to Wisner and Dresser who would cut the cypress. Their heirs and successors were lucky enough that this was around the time of Spindletop and Jennings oil discoveries. With the chance of oil they started paying the property taxes and have kept the lands. Their heirs are the Atchafalaya Land Company. A similar organization is the St Martin Land Company (located in the State of Iowa if I remember correctly). But, regardless of how it was done the land became privately owned. Most of these companies have been good owners, protecting their lands and keeping them in good condition.
Only recently has this groupie theory of State land being everything under water at any time surfaced. It has gotten nowhere in the courts and will die out soon.
Fubar

[noze]

I am well aware of the Wisner & Dresser move, but like you said about the Longs and Edwards it also was hanky panky. The land was sold under the great Foster and Company gang. How is it that these same people ALC and SLC got the rights to claim School Section 16 properties. Is it not a Federal Law that these lands are not to be sold exept under certain conditions. Yes I know about the deals that were made to sell them and guest what, that does not make it right either. You say that these land companies pay their taxes on these lands, take a trip to see what their land is valued at then see what taxes they pay. They value thier property at less than a dollar an acre but sell it at 60 to 100 thousand to sell it, then keep all of the minerals on the lands. You call that good, good for what. I guest we will all see what will happen in court. Check out the ruling on Rycade Lake. A judge made this ruling not me. One day the people will get the state back. I am done with you.

[fubar]

Sorry you are leaving. Which 16th Section? Under law a 16h section dedicated to schools (even an in lieu section) can be sold only under strict rules. It would interest me to know which one (can you provide the range and township?). When was it sold and were the minerals reserved as required by law?
The value of the swamp land is for the land. Louisiana does not allow the taxing of the value of minerals in place - the substitute is supposed to be the severance tax.
The same valuation that allows farmers and owners of woodland applies to the basin lands. If you want to change tax value for one you will need to do it for all. Good luck as any legislator who will vote to change the use value assessment is a goner. Not that true valuation for taxes is a bad thing. Under correct property tax theory full value really assists in causing the development of property, but, again, one cannot develop the basin land any more because of the Federal restriction.
Fubar

[noze]

Well since you know about the strict rules of these lands, and I do know them, there has only been two elections in this state for these properties to be sold and both of them failed. If you need the range numbers I do have all of them. These are federal lands with federal laws. The early Fosters made it possible to sell them, but not by the law. Why do we have Laws? Thanks for calling me back. Noze